This is the log of our gun workshop Oct 16th - slightly edited to make it readable
Thanks to all who showed up and contributed - it was productive and fun!

[2015/10/16 14:40] Piper Rewell: Woot starting!

[2015/10/16 14:40] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): We have a couple of important hard rules about gun RP - though they might still have some room for interpretation here and there. We will talk about them in a bit, and you will have time to ask questions about them. But while everyone can read up the rules, and follow them, I think it is even more important to find a deeper understanding what gun RP can contribute to RP, what it is good for, why it is regulated - and how bad gun RP can easily ruin a scene or a story (sometimes even when the rules are followed).

[2015/10/16 14:41] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): That will be my main part - to talk about the "philosophy" of gun RP, and how important it is to follow the rules as well as RP etiquette to make gun RP fun for everyone involved.

[2015/10/16 14:42] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): After that I will summarize the hard gun rules - and we will have time to talk about them one by one . Please try and wait with your questions till then - unless I am talking nonsense and you need an instant clarification..

[2015/10/16 14:42] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): After the rules- and etiquette section Lucy will talk about the HPD and what to expect from them when you carry a gun - and which guidelines the cops are supposed to follow.

[2015/10/16 14:43] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): And if you have any more technical questions about gun rules - fortunately we have some experts here like Piper or Lucy who actually -have- a gun permit (unlike me) and who know how to shoot (unlike me :P)

[2015/10/16 14:44] Piper Rewell: /me doesn't comment on the irony of Blue leading a gun workshop >.>

[2015/10/16 14:44] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): So.... Guns are regulated in CD because using a firearm will often end a scene. And because guns can have a severe impact on the other character. We want them in the hands of responsible RPers, and we want to limit the total number of guns on sim, so that not every conflict will escalate to the use of firearms.

[2015/10/16 14:45] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): Why does gun RP often end a scene? - Because most RPers have a death limit, or at least don't want to die in a random combat scene. The moment a gun is drawn, your options to react are severely limited if you don't want to get shot - or even die. Bullets are hard to dodge, and when they are well aimed, point blank and/or short distance it can even be impossible to dodge them without ninjaing.

[2015/10/16 14:46] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): That's why many people are reluctant to stay in a scene with drawn guns - especially when they don't know their counterpart. Simply being subdued CAN enrich your story when you trust your attacker - or it can be terribly frustrating when your opponent doesn't care about you and your story.

[2015/10/16 14:46] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): That means - when a gun comes into play, ideally all RPers involved should try and find a plausible way how all RPers involved can survive - without godmodding the healing process.

[2015/10/16 14:47] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): Important - this includes the potential victim

[2015/10/16 14:47] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): NEVER HIDE BEHIND YOUR DEATH LIMIT. React as if you -could- die. In most cases a person that is facing a gun will fear for their life, they will back down, comply, or simply break down and cry. Don't be afraid of showing weakness. It's human.

[2015/10/16 14:48] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): Of course there are exceptions. There might be highly emotional situations, situations where people try to save loved ones, or people who go just crazy or are drugged and will not comply. But these are exceptions. If you don't back down - it's simple. Expect to get shot. Expect to take a lot of damage. Depending on the situation the most realistic outcome of such a reaction could be your death.

[2015/10/16 14:49] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): So even if your character is all badass, strong and fearless - you should consider to back down when threatened with a gun. Keep in mind - often there are still ways to get around whatever you are asked to do - you can try and talk your way out. When it's about information - you can lie. When it's about rape or torture and you don't feel comfortable with it - consider fading to black, that is a valid way to avoid a scene you dont want to RP out. And keep in mind that a gun doesn't make anyone invincible - maybe if you pretend to comply you will get a chance to fight back later? Maybe if they come closer, if they get distracted...

[2015/10/16 14:50] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): And from the gunholder's perspective: Be considerate when you have someone at gunpoint . You have a big advantage, don't abuse your power.

[2015/10/16 14:51] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): Don't make unreasonable demands - if you expect people to do things that are completely contrary to their character, or something that is pushing their OOC limits - it seems unfair to shoot them for not complying. There are other ways to hurt them than a bullet to their head.

[2015/10/16 14:53] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): Keep in mind that not everyone wants to be forced into sex slavery (though some certainly would love to!) or that a loving mother might decide to rather die than get her kids hurt. Don't make unreasonable demands - or -if- you do, give them still a chance to get out of the situation, even if it would be with severe injuries - but still alive.

[2015/10/16 14:54] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): That being said - it is NOT against the rules to aim precisely and to shoot. IC your character of course can try to kill. But you should have a good IC reason for it. Such attacks should be reserved for mortal enemies and people with serious grudges, not random brawls or fights with strangers. And even when you are targeting your arch enemy - you should RP considerate enough to give them a chance to survive. Arch enemies are rare! It's fun to keep them!

[2015/10/16 14:54] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): That leads me to the first basic gun rules

[2015/10/16 14:54] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): ALWAYS WEAR YOUR TAG. Without gun tag you are not carrying, period.

[2015/10/16 14:55] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): ALWAYS DRAW, AIM AND SHOOT IN AT LEAST TWO POSTS.

[2015/10/16 14:56] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): Everyone should have a chance to react to your gun - and to avoid getting shot. Usually I would recommend (like with every other combat scene) to give them an IC option to back out of the scene. They should have the possibility to run, to walk off, or at least to comply relatively unharmed. Especially if only little provocation will lead your character to drawing the gun - it's a good idea to let your opponent know about your plan on drawing it

[2015/10/16 14:56] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): DON'T join a scene and draw your gun in your first post. That is bad etiquette. Interact first. Don't ambush people, let them see your gun so they can do something about it.

[2015/10/16 14:57] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): Once a gun is drawn and aimed, it sometimes seems hard to back off from using it. Especially when your cahracter is the aggressive arrogant kind who "won't do idle threats". And especially if your opponent doesnt react as expected.

[2015/10/16 14:58] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): Keep in mind that there are still always alternatives to shoot point blank at vital bodyparts

[2015/10/16 14:59] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): you dont have to aim at head or chest to leave an impression. what about kneecaps or shoulder. and why not just humiliate them and scare them to death without wounding them - shoot at their feet or whatever you can think of

[2015/10/16 14:59] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): Keep in mind that murdering someone is risky - does your character really want to go to jail for a lifetime? How will you get rid of the corpse? Are there witnesses? Maybe even your badass character will have doubts.

[2015/10/16 15:00] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): Okay - i think i am talking too much, as usual - so let me quickly copy and paste the rules - and then we can go through them and you can ask questions

1. You are only carrying a gun when you are wearing your tag -before- the scene starts
This being said - please don't interpret this rule as "i better should wear my tag always". Many gunholders use their tag only when they plan on using their gun, or when their character has an IC reason to be armed all day.

Related: Keep in mind that you might lose your gun permit when your character is arrested: After three arrests for open carry resp. after having your concealed gun confiscated five times (you can reapply after two months)

2. Draw, aim and shoot in at least two posts.
How good your aim is will depend on your skills, but also on your character's emotional state (shaking fingers?), on people closeby who might try and stop you, on the question if your target is moving or not etc.

3. Only one or two shots per postround.
Take care not to use more ammunition than you realistically would have - reloading your weapon will need time.

4. Don't abuse your death limit - If you get reported for hiding behind your death limit, you might lose your gun permit.

5. Guns should be used as last resort.

[2015/10/16 15:02] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): The last one is a bit tricky - and it -is- more open for interpretation than the others

[2015/10/16 15:02] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): The main point of this rule is - guns shouldnt be your only or first weapon of choice. If you can RP a certain scene without guns - do so. In most cases it will be a better scene, leaves more room for interaction, will be more fun for all involved. Don't pull your gun in your first post, consider alternatives. Wait if your counterpart complies, give them a chance to back down.

[2015/10/16 15:02] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): But - in an already established fight, it's alright to draw, you have a permit, you can use it to defend yourself or others. You can use it when you are outnumbered. You can use it to defend your territory/gang turf. You don't need to wait for a life threatening situation to draw.

[2015/10/16 15:03] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): And of course sometimes it can be plausible and good for a story to bring in a gun from the beginning.
An armed robbery. A kidnap scene that is supposed to go smoothly. Certain gang war situations, especially when your gang is outnumbered. A really dramatic retaliation scene against a stronger opponent ... these are moments where OOC communication might be useful. With consent you can of course ambush and shoot point blank to your hearts content (just take care that bystanders are made aware of the consent, too, so they don't get confused about the rules).

[2015/10/16 15:04] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): alright. Now that i have build this wall of text i am finally open for questions! Maybe lets start with questions that directly relate to the rules

[2015/10/16 15:07] Omidon Zeller (omidon): How do you handle a situation when the opponent, no matter who it is, or what the story is or the case may be, refuses to 'lose' or 'back down' or realistically respond how would be expected? I understand a happy medium is best found, but I'm curious how to best face these types of situations without stalling a scene for a moderator call.

[2015/10/16 15:07] Piper Rewell: That's to me, considered hiding behind a death limit.

[2015/10/16 15:08] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): /me points at piper and nods

[2015/10/16 15:08] Matsui Thei: yeah I wonder what to do with those types too, knowing it is hide behind limit but ooc want less drama possible , dunno, I'd realistically just shoot them in their chest since they don't back down but yeah >_>;

[2015/10/16 15:08] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and how to react - difficult to give a standard answer. make them aware what they are doing OOC - and that its considered a rules violations
[2015/10/16 15:09] Piper Rewell: If someone does that during a scene, I will usually IM them and ask them first if they are crazy, then secondly if they understand what hiding behind death limits means. If that doesn't work, then I end up shooting them in the head. *shrugs*

[2015/10/16 15:09] Simona 'Simi' Annaloro (simirusso): If someone doesn't want to back down IC and you are feeling your efforts are for nothing, I would totally go with posting out without drama and stuff.
[2015/10/16 15:09] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): or just fuck them up without killing them.

[2015/10/16 15:10] Ellie Vond (elliemyth): Smack them around WITH the gun

[2015/10/16 15:10] Piper Rewell: I've had cops charge at me while I had hostages at point blank. I shoot the hostages. The hostages get mad at the cops.

[2015/10/16 15:10] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and of course - you can always decide to not bother and shrug it off.

[2015/10/16 15:10] Piper Rewell: However, yes if someone is being unrealistic ICly and you feel you aren't getting anywhere, then it's ok to just walk away.

[2015/10/16 15:10] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): also. still keep in mind that to them it -might- be a valid reaction.

[2015/10/16 15:11] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): i personally have seen irl how some people react to a gun, and some -are- crazy.

[2015/10/16 15:11] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): had some guy walk up , arms extended and screaming shoot me shoot me - it was just a gas pistol but looked very real

[2015/10/16 15:12] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): I've seen that happen before.

[2015/10/16 15:12] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): so - if it fits to the situation and their character - i d think there are always still ways to deal with it and -not- kill them

[2015/10/16 15:13] Piper Rewell: Like....your chamber is empty. Your hand shakes. Shooting past someone's ear can make them temporarily deaf.

[2015/10/16 15:13] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): I had always understood, that it was the other player that dictated the area of the wound, and the severity.

[2015/10/16 15:13] Simona 'Simi' Annaloro (simirusso): ^

[2015/10/16 15:14] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and - shoot at their knee or shoulder. and yes, karn, but when you shoot point blank there is not much to direct

[2015/10/16 15:14] Piper Rewell: that.

[2015/10/16 15:14] Simona 'Simi' Annaloro (simirusso): this is true too

[2015/10/16 15:14] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): Have the wrong ammo!

[2015/10/16 15:14] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): What if they personally place themselves point blank?

[2015/10/16 15:15] Simona 'Simi' Annaloro (simirusso): I feel that's valid. If they are going to place themselves there they should check OOCLy first what the chances are of the character actually taking the shot.

[2015/10/16 15:15] Piper Rewell: I think actually RPing backing down from a gun is something that is hard for most people to do.

[2015/10/16 15:16] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): It is hard, i've been shot a few ties because of it.
[2015/10/16 15:16] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): times^

[2015/10/16 15:16] Piper Rewell: Maybe because most people haven't stood facing down a barrel irl. Having a death limit in a sim that allows guns can be tricky. It's up to both folks, victim and perp to manage the scene so that everyone wins.

[2015/10/16 15:17] Matsui Thei: I always back down T_T
[2015/10/16 15:17] Simona 'Simi' Annaloro (simirusso): I back all the fuck away from guns....

[2015/10/16 15:17] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): then they -are- of course risking to get shot, karn. Again - no standard answer. you can shoot them , if the sitiuation somehow warrants it. but i d still ask myself if it s the best possible reaction. even in rl - i would ask myself if i want to kill with all the consequences, or if i just want to render them helpless. depends if they are a threat, too.

[2015/10/16 15:17] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): From experience. Facing a loaded weapon RL and not knowing if the other end will pull a trigger or not... You will piss yourself.

[2015/10/16 15:17] Brendan Forsythe: I can second that.
[2015/10/16 15:17] Elseworth Taov (elseworth.dagger): Third
[2015/10/16 15:17] Matsui Thei: I'd cry in rl <_<
[2015/10/16 15:17] Brendan Forsythe: and I was a US Marine in Afghanistan IRL.

[2015/10/16 15:18] Ellie Vond (elliemyth): I have a suggestion for if someone walks up to be at point blank. Tell me if this is wrong or not (okay or not): But, if they do and they have a death limit, then why can't the gun be jammed up? Or be out of bullets accidentally cause you were cleaning it or something?

[2015/10/16 15:18] Ling Jiao (domri): I got robbed at gunpoint once. I just froze
[2015/10/16 15:18] Ling Jiao (domri): Brain went OFF

[2015/10/16 15:18] Piper Rewell: Ellie, it can. You can do that.

[2015/10/16 15:18] Piper Rewell: However i think that if someone is going to be walking up to my gun, then they are being a little silly.
[2015/10/16 15:19] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and what piper said.

[2015/10/16 15:19] Ellie Vond (elliemyth): Hell, even the bullet can "travel"

[2015/10/16 15:19] Matsui Thei: I always have bad aim as backup or 'oo shiny moment' -shoots, smacks own face with the back of gun accidentally-

[2015/10/16 15:19] Piper Rewell: And that puts all the responsibility on ME to make sure they don't die. I prefer not to have to play babysitter like that all the time.

[2015/10/16 15:20] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): i think there are really different situations - i probably wouldnt bother with a very creative solution when they are really just playing badass and being "not afraid of guns"

[2015/10/16 15:20] Piper Rewell: that

[2015/10/16 15:20] Omidon Zeller (omidon): I feel that you are in charge of your own limits and making sure they're not breached. Not someone else to make sure your limits are all nice and protected.

[2015/10/16 15:20] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): but when it s more like - you made an unreasonable demand, or you were just showing off without real provocation, so that they -might- think you are not serious. or they still argue to talk you out of it ...

[2015/10/16 15:21] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): i might try and avoid a potentially lethal shot.

[2015/10/16 15:21] Elseworth Taov (elseworth.dagger): the one holding the gun has alot of responsibility but the one that its being pointed at has their own. And if death is not what you want, dont do something to put yourself in that situation. Its your choice to react. I always assume that the person with the gun wont hesitate to shoot me in the face

[2015/10/16 15:21] Matsui Thei: i forgot hpd has those damn vests as protection <_< klev...kla..kle..cl..cleav...wat...klaver(?) i forgot-name-vest
[2015/10/16 15:21] Matsui Thei: clevclar?

[2015/10/16 15:21] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): Kevlar

[2015/10/16 15:21] Piper Rewell: kevlar. But there are plenty of places to shoot that aren't covered by it

[2015/10/16 15:21] Elseworth Taov (elseworth.dagger): kevlar only covers chest and torso theres alot of places besides that

[2015/10/16 15:22] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): Fun fact. Kevlar does not prevent every caliber. The ones most known on sim, yes. but there have been snipers! A 7mm round will go through kevlar.

[2015/10/16 15:22] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): Kevlar offers only limited to protection, if Lucy gets shot in the vest I still often RP a broken rib or at least being winded, it's not an invisible ninja bullet deflecting forcefield

[2015/10/16 15:20] Brendan Forsythe: I have seen a lot of enemies just charge guns, claiming "They don't care"

[2015/10/16 15:21] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): yeah, brendan - those should be IMed, and told about the "dont hide behind death limits " rule

[2015/10/16 15:22] Brendan Forsythe: IM them? Or IM a moderator?

[2015/10/16 15:21] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and if they arent responsive - report them

[2015/10/16 15:22] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): Brendan, I would IM them first - and see how they react

[2015/10/16 15:22] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): if they understand, you dont need to call in staff

[2015/10/16 15:22] Brendan Forsythe: Right.

[2015/10/16 15:21] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): Just to make a case in point. The rules are iron clad for guns on sim. I personally just got my permit suspended the other day for not following them closely.

[2015/10/16 15:22] Piper Rewell: And they have to be, sadly. Guns are a sticky topic. We have to be strict or it would get crazy
[2015/10/16 15:22] Piper Rewell: crazier*

[2015/10/16 15:22] Matsui Thei: isnt sniper not permitted?
[2015/10/16 15:23] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): Special case story arcs.
[2015/10/16 15:23] Elseworth Taov (elseworth.dagger): It hasnt been since like...07 i think
[2015/10/16 15:23] Piper Rewell: snipes are permitted by special admin dispensation
[2015/10/16 15:23] Piper Rewell: snipers lol
[2015/10/16 15:23] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): /me snipes Piper
[2015/10/16 15:23] Omidon Zeller (omidon): Wesley Snipes?

[2015/10/16 15:25] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and - another important thing. If there -are- issues. and your counterpart doesnt react as expected when you IM them - please please report gun rule violations

[2015/10/16 15:26] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): people might make honest mistakes, but we really want to keep track of those issues. and everyone with a gun permit is supposed to know the gun rules

[2015/10/16 15:26] Matsui Thei: I always feel like I may get hurt/harassed if reporting such to admin or any issue that seem unsolving. that is why I let it go or happen.

[2015/10/16 15:26] Piper Rewell: A lot of people don't want to use the player abuse portal for fear that they are causing waves or being snitchy, etc. But i assure you that is not the case.

[2015/10/16 15:26] Piper Rewell: If you DO get harassed after that, report that too

[2015/10/16 15:26] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): matsui, you will be under our special protection!
[2015/10/16 15:27] Matsui Thei: ^_^

[2015/10/16 15:27] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): Even from me?

[2015/10/16 15:27] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and what piper says, that is something people really have to understand.

[2015/10/16 15:27] Matsui Thei: but sadly, if outside sl, it is always said nothing can be done. which is understandable.

[2015/10/16 15:27] Piper Rewell: i think our staff do a good job of keeping CD safe for everyone to play in, but they can't do it if they don't know about the problems

[2015/10/16 15:27] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): reporting is not snitching, and we dont ban just for an honest mistake

[2015/10/16 15:27] Piper Rewell: outside SL, no of course not.

[2015/10/16 15:27] Piper Rewell: that includes Twitter *makes the sign against evil*

[2015/10/16 15:28] Matsui Thei: in sl they do not usually.

[2015/10/16 15:28] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and in the majority of cases we will find a solution everyone is happy with, or just clarify rules

[2015/10/16 15:28] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): I'm a spokesman for the whole player abuse portal. I hated using it for really important things. (Sometimes hpd mod issues need reported so the mods get them and on file) But really, after talking it over with a few folks.. It's not that big of deal. Just make sure it's legit as helll.

[2015/10/16 15:31] Brendan Forsythe: Well I feel like there's a lot of reluctance to report someone because we all just want to be happy and more importantly continue to RP with those people, and usually if someone's been reported, or someone reports you, especially if there's no IM beforehand, that's usually a permanent RP block.

[2015/10/16 15:31] Piper Rewell: well, an IM should always be your first choice to deal with situations.

[2015/10/16 15:32] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): well, we recommend that you first try to sort it out in IM

[2015/10/16 15:32] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): Politely.

[2015/10/16 15:32] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): AND we try to get across that it is not a deadly offense when somebody asks for moderation

[2015/10/16 15:32] Piper Rewell: Politely. It matters.

[2015/10/16 15:33] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): If you just go right off and report a person, without at least letting them know that you think they did something wrong, it will usually just lead to them being angry about it, and feeling a bit blindsided. So always always always a god idea to message them about the issue before taking it that far.

[2015/10/16 15:33] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): You also have to think of the further consquences, you may not wish to report someone for those fears but if everyone thought that (and I believe this actually happens) then that player with the same problems in multiple RP scenes will continue doing so without staff even being aware of it happening, apart from rumors and hearsay that we can't act on

[2015/10/16 15:33] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): as i said, we dont ban just because
somebody made one, two or three mistakes. if we ban or not depends on their reaction and willingness to learn. And often it s really just a little talk about the rules and no big wrist slapping

[2015/10/16 15:34] Elseworth Taov (elseworth.dagger): Try to resolve it with a person before just going off and reporting. That should be the last resort if you cant resolve anything. Most people are pretty good about being talked to. Dont even realize they made a mistake most times

[2015/10/16 15:35] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): politeness is really important. I've had issues with moderation stuff in HPD and have had people just get down right nasty for no reason. It gives a bad taste in handling it and I make blue deal with it after that. On the same coin, if I had an issue in a scene with Lucy, and popped out "You stupid cunt, I used 2 posts to shoot two rounds and you didn't take a single fucking one, but you expect me to take that point blank to the leg? I don't fucking think so, god you're such a noobcake".... that's not gonna go over well and already puts people on edge.

[2015/10/16 15:35] Piper Rewell: Yes, especially if we can all keep it civil.

[2015/10/16 15:36] Piper Rewell: We are all grownups here, I hope, and writing is what we do. There's no excuse for being a dick in IMs, even when someone is being a dick first.

[2015/10/16 15:36] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): Blue knows what I'm talking about. 😛

[2015/10/16 15:37] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and still - if it s about gun rules - and you have the feeling they dont get the issue, or dont understand the rule, or just dont really listen - please tell us. Gun permits are given under the condition that you know and follow the rules.

Peri (Perina McGinnis): It's pretty vital, really. So ooften you hear, "oh, there's been issues", and the admin team has to go, "what issues?" because -nobody- has reported anything.

[2015/10/16 15:37] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and blue knows, grace, blue knows.

[2015/10/16 15:28] DeeJBlunt: I have a question, I work in the pawn shop and sell guns,it makes sense to be around them. forgive me if someone went over this before but if someone tries to rob me or what not, could I use a gun in that case? I have no intention of taking it outside the store or using it for personal, in fact i only came here to learn all this and see if i needed to fill out a permit request.

[2015/10/16 15:28] Piper Rewell: Yes, in order to fire a gun you must have a permit.

[2015/10/16 15:28] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): dee - if you use it you need a permit.

[2015/10/16 15:29] Matsui Thei: dee, you can cover unable to shoot while having guns around by having all guns sold unloaded and thus useless until you have permit 😀

[2015/10/16 15:29] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): Also... personal parcel + Gun rules

[2015/10/16 15:29] Piper Rewell: /me nods nods

[2015/10/16 15:29] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): That one might need to be explained too.

[2015/10/16 15:30] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): private land - the landowner rules. we dont police anything that happens on someones private plot

[2015/10/16 15:30] Piper Rewell: ....UNLESS it's a gang/HPD fight.

[2015/10/16 15:30] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): Unless asked.

[2015/10/16 15:30] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): Well, like yeah ^^

[2015/10/16 15:30] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): unless that

[2015/10/16 15:30] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): yeah

[2015/10/16 15:30] Piper Rewell: So HPD going onto my land will still need thier permits in order 😛

[2015/10/16 15:39] Nicky DiPietro (vv01f.hermans): I'm curious about the arrest rule thing, where the gun permit is revoked after X arrests. Who keeps track of that, if anyone?

[2015/10/16 15:40] Piper Rewell: you will know. It will kick you from the armed group. It's automatic

[2015/10/16 15:40] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): We have a little thingiee we click that says if we took the gun.

[2015/10/16 15:42] Matsui Thei: OH I HAVE A QUESTION

[2015/10/16 15:42] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): lesson here is always run from the police, and ditch your gun while running.

[2015/10/16 15:43] Nicky DiPietro (vv01f.hermans): Don't always run! You'll tire us out 🙁

[2015/10/16 15:43] Matsui Thei: i was sometimes arrested and no gun is concealed because i didnt even play having it on me but i didnt realise i had armed tag on, no IMs ever, but when it happened a while ago i wonder now, does that have impact? I wonder if this question is clear.

[2015/10/16 15:44] Matsui Thei: so i never played gun, when asked whats on me, never mentioned gun, but armed tag was on

[2015/10/16 15:44] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): matsui, shouldnt have an effect if it wasnt rped out

[2015/10/16 15:44] Piper Rewell: Matsui, it only matters if the HPD ticked the box that said they took your gun.

[2015/10/16 15:44] Piper Rewell: and if there was no RP gun, then it didn't get involved. Unless they make shit up, which happens

[2015/10/16 15:44] Matsui Thei: ok ^_^

[2015/10/16 15:45] Piper Rewell: I like to think of my armed tag as another part of th outfit i put on in the afternoon when Piper wakes up, and gets dressed. Shoes, check. Pants, check. Gun..check.

[2015/10/16 15:45] Damien (damien.poza): wearing the armed tag isnt reason enough because wouldnt that be God modding if you said you werent carrying?

[2015/10/16 15:46] Piper Rewell: If you are wearing the armed tag, but you say you're not carrying, you should probably take off the tag.

[2015/10/16 15:47] Nicky DiPietro (vv01f.hermans): I'd say give people the benefit of the doubt. I sometimes forget tags on myself. If someone frequently runs around with armed tag but never RPs actually being armed when he's arrested, then I'd talk to them or a mod about it

[2015/10/16 15:47] Damien (damien.poza): well like she said if you didnt even realize it.

[2015/10/16 15:47] Matsui Thei: yeah it happens to me only when I dont realize what tag I am on which happens all the time I rped today without any tag on cause I never pay attention <_<;

[2015/10/16 15:47] Piper Rewell: You can't be arrested for carrying a gun just by wearing your armed tag

[2015/10/16 15:47] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): I would say you are only carrying if you wear your tag -and- RP out having a gun. Afaik wearing the tag doesnt automatically mean you are carrying. - you -should- take it off, but yeah, i think it s a forgivable mistake.

[2015/10/16 15:47] Piper Rewell: right. No one is going to freak out..and if they do we want to hear about it 😛

[2015/10/16 15:47] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): exactly 🙂

[2015/10/16 15:48] Damien (damien.poza): like i walk around with a vehicle permit tag on while not riding. lol

[2015/10/16 15:48] Piper Rewell: the only point of the tag is for everyone in the scene to know that you are a responsible gun user when you pull it out.

[2015/10/16 15:48] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): might be different if you are wearing the tag, anf the prim gun though.

[2015/10/16 15:48] Piper Rewell: Still...if you don't RP it out, it doesn't exist.

[2015/10/16 15:50] Piper Rewell: If you are wearing a prim gun on your hand and the armed tag and forget to RP it out, then you are drunk and need to go home.

[2015/10/16 15:51] Nicky DiPietro (vv01f.hermans): Isn't that just asking for abuse though? Say I run around with the armed tag always on and a prim gun hanging at my side. When I get in trouble with the law I pretend the gun isn't there. If I get in trouble with a gang I use the gun?

[2015/10/16 15:51] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): if somebody would do that all the time, we would certainly have a talk , nicky

[2015/10/16 15:51] Piper Rewell: yes. that Blue said.

[2015/10/16 15:51] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): if it happens once - no issue

[2015/10/16 15:51] Jöhn Scött Mörpörk (johnathan.morpork): I would say if the prim is clearly visible, its fair game

[2015/10/16 15:52] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): like if they forget to detach their cocks - fair game...

[2015/10/16 15:52] Piper Rewell: I would agree, and another RPer can certainly use it in
thier RP, and then it would be there, existing.

[2015/10/16 15:52] Elseworth Taov (elseworth.dagger): LMFAO
[2015/10/16 15:52] Elseworth Taov (elseworth.dagger): totally fair game
[2015/10/16 15:52] Piper Rewell: yep. Put it away or it gets used.

[2015/10/16 15:53] Nicky DiPietro (vv01f.hermans): Oh and... any policies on/against dual wielding? I wanna see Lara Croft in Hathian :p

[2015/10/16 15:53] Elseworth Taov (elseworth.dagger): /me wants to be lara croft

[2015/10/16 15:54] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): No dual wielding.

[2015/10/16 15:54] Piper Rewell: I don't know that there's an express policy against it, but since this is the armpit of Hathian and even our best crooks are still pretty ghetto, I don't think anyone should be dual wielding.

[2015/10/16 15:54] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): no dual wielding - is what i used to know... it s not in the current gun rules i think?. But - it is highly unrealistic and pretty pointless since nobody can really aim that way.

[2015/10/16 15:55] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): It's something that we don't let Cops do at least. It's just.. too overpowering.

[2015/10/16 15:55] Matsui Thei: what is dual wieling?

[2015/10/16 15:55] Piper Rewell: one gun in each hand

[2015/10/16 15:55] Nicky DiPietro (vv01f.hermans): What about carrying two guns but only firing one at a time?

[2015/10/16 15:55] Nicky DiPietro (vv01f.hermans): like, instead of reloading

[2015/10/16 15:55] Brendan Forsythe: Nicky. That would be really pointless if they were both the same kind of gun.

[2015/10/16 15:56] Piper Rewell: Again, nothing against it in the rules, but you'd be pretty unpopular if you used that trick on folks

[2015/10/16 15:56] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): i think that you can do , nicky. are you planning something we should know of?

[2015/10/16 15:56] Peri (perina.mcginnis): He's a menace, watch him.

[2015/10/16 15:56] Brendan Forsythe: If you draw one, fire it til it's dry, and then holster that one and draw the other, it's really the same amount of turns as reloading.

[2015/10/16 15:57] Nicky DiPietro (vv01f.hermans): /me whistles innocently and looks about

[2015/10/16 15:58] Piper Rewell: one at a time would be techincally ok, but it would probably not be looked on too favorably. Like we said before, you have the advantage and the power in a scene with a gun. Using it considerately is something that will go a long way with other people wanting to play with you again.

[2015/10/16 15:59] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): I've never seen a scene that's required more than a few shots, let alone an entire magazine that requires reloading

[2015/10/16 15:59] Piper Rewell: Piper has to hold her gun in both hands due to nerve damage and other things.

[2015/10/16 15:59] Matsui Thei: can armed tag have tazers

[2015/10/16 16:00] Piper Rewell: Anyone can have tazers right?

[2015/10/16 16:00] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): not projectile tasers

[2015/10/16 16:00] Piper Rewell: ahh right.

[2015/10/16 16:00] Matsui Thei: what is projective tazer?
q
[2015/10/16 16:00] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): those that shoot prongs

[2015/10/16 16:01] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): for those you need a permit

[2015/10/16 16:01] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): a stungun that works only when you touch the other one is always allowed

[2015/10/16 16:01] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): So. ..no crossbows without a permit?

[2015/10/16 16:01] Piper Rewell: No crossbows period.

[2015/10/16 16:02] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and no exotic unusual weapons without admin approval

[2015/10/16 16:02] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): So, does that mean, that i can't walk around with a quiver of arrows. and physically THROW them at people?

[2015/10/16 16:02] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): /me puts her collection of medieval weapons away quietly

[2015/10/16 16:02] Elseworth Taov (elseworth.dagger): my god...please do

[2015/10/16 16:03] Peri (perina.mcginnis): that would actually be hilarious lol

[2015/10/16 16:03] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): or - could i walk around with a handful of bullets and throw them at people?

[2015/10/16 16:03] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): Yes!

[2015/10/16 16:03] Matsui Thei: LOL

[2015/10/16 16:03] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): thats the spirit!

[2015/10/16 16:03] Nicky DiPietro (vv01f.hermans): *flings handfuls of shells yelling* BAM BAM BRATTA BRATTA ?

[2015/10/16 16:09] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): /me hands the microphone to Lucy then - tell us what to expect from the HPD - except being shot!

[2015/10/16 16:09] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): /me taps the microphone.

[2015/10/16 16:11] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): So there's two things to remember firstly with HPD that more or less all officers can be considered armed, because, if they haven't earned their armed officer tag yet they still carry tazer, which as mentioned, is kind of considered a firearm in combat scenes, those that fire projectile prongs at least. So we can almost guarantee when HPD turn up there's a high chance one or the other will be used, in either case gun rules apply.

[2015/10/16 16:13] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): However. The senior ranking officers and lead of HPD try our best to make sure when officers turn up to scenes they don't automatically pull tazer or gun, especially if there's no armed suspects on the scene.

[2015/10/16 16:16] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): I won't go into too much detail about what we try to teach HPD in regards to combat and firearms, it's assumed, like any other player on sim that getting your armed officer or citizen tag is done under the understanding that you've read and understood the rules, the only difference is officers -should- be under the understanding that it's a lot easier to lose your HPD job (IC or OOC) than it is to get your gun taken away from you as a 'normal' player on sim. HPD is the easiest and quickest way to get a great deal of power over everyone else on sim in CD and we do encourage officers to use that with responsibility for the furtherment of sim RP and not as an excuse to win out on every scene they are involved in.

[2015/10/16 16:19] Piper Rewell: Because HPD is so much more visible it's more important that they follow the rules closely. They're seen as RP role models (justified or not) by the larger community.

[2015/10/16 16:20] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): HPD officers should be treated like any other player in a firearm related scene, OOC communication can be key, especially in large scenes and any issues arising should be solved between players in IMs at the first point, IF the issues can't be resolved but it's something simple or need clarification you can boink a Lt. or Captain (lead) for assistance, anything else of a more serious nature should be reported to the abuse portal like any other player/scene related issues.

[2015/10/16 16:21] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): Bring me gifts of cherry candy and no one gets hurt.

[2015/10/16 16:22] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): Or expensive lingerie

[2015/10/16 16:22] Matsui Thei: ill bring you choco

[2015/10/16 16:24] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): And lastly I'll talk about what YOU as players can and should expect from HPD in any scene where we respond, especially those involving firearms. Officers should wait, in chat range, for at least one full post round before posting in or two for especially large scenes. If they do radio for back up they should do so in their post FIRST then wait another post round before actually putting the message out on the HUD and/or in group chat, it'll give any suspects in scene the chance to try to prevent it and stretches things out a bit to avoid HPD turning up in numbers and killing scenes. On guns specifically: WE EXPECT our officers to meet force with force not try to out do it, so if a cop pulls a gun on a scene with one or two people fighting with fists, that's a no no (a bit variable depending on how the scene goes but as a general rule, not so much), we encourage them to use batons, tazer, and guns ONLY when other guns are present and/or there is an IMMEDIATE threat to life of officers or public.

[2015/10/16 16:25] Piper Rewell: two post rounds for large scenes can be a long time waiting.

[2015/10/16 16:26] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): One more thing, we don't expect and hope that officers don't go into scenes expecting arrest, so if an officer or officers do turn up and it looks like it's going to turn into a firefight, you can always take that as your cue to run the fuck away! Chase scenes are an entirely different subject I won't try to cover here 😛

[2015/10/16 16:27] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): Yes Piper, if the scene is -too- large then it may take a while but we'll always wait the first one and post in on the second but the post maybe arriving without getting directly/physically involved. nothing worse than an epic fight ending with the first post of the cops arriving!

[2015/10/16 16:28] Piper Rewell: Chase scenes can be frustrating, which is probably one reason why folks don't run as much as they should. And I think that's a good rule for anyone arriving on a large scene. ONE FULL ROUND you wait, before you post in. You have no idea what's going on. Maybe that person you just walked up to and said hi to is actually on fire.

[2015/10/16 16:28] Jöhn Scött Mörpörk (johnathan.morpork): That is an issue I see a lot of

[2015/10/16 16:29] Piper Rewell: I don't see it much lately myself. But it's true that cops showing up on a scene can kill it. However, you're in a public place, then you can reasonably expect the cops to show up.

[2015/10/16 16:29] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): 2 post rounds is pretty standard for backup calls. It's what we push for, but realistically, yes.. 1 on large scenes makes sense. Rule of thumb = Common sense.

[2015/10/16 16:30] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): I think it's one of the few times ego helps

[2015/10/16 16:30] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): "I don't need no back up" is a valid thought

[2015/10/16 16:30] Piper Rewell: why don't cops ever think like that around me? Sheesh.

[2015/10/16 16:30] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): Usually ends up with Lucy getting mopped to death

[2015/10/16 16:31] Piper Rewell: 'oh look its piper....call for the entire HPD'

[2015/10/16 16:32] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): Hey, If cops show up, and get permission from everyone in a scene, they , if given permission, don't even have to wait.

[2015/10/16 16:32] Piper Rewell: No...I don't agree with that Karn.

[2015/10/16 16:33] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): We might also encourage HPD to stand back and let people beat each other tired then coral them up

[2015/10/16 16:33] Grace Robertson (gracerobertson): Yes. I hate paperwork

[2015/10/16 16:34] Piper Rewell: I don't want every cop showing up IMing me asking me permission to join my scene. I expect you to wait your post round like everyone else, then join in. Even if all you have is a tazer and I have a gun. There's things can be done.

[2015/10/16 16:34] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): I do try to co-ordinate things IC'ly if a big scene kicks off when I'm online, I might not be there but I have before ordered officers to stand down when four respond to assist with an ID check or something minor

[2015/10/16 16:42] Piper Rewell: You know, as someone who's been cammed on this wall for a couple hours, so that the lag doesn't prevent me from typing, what if we had this class in like, CD Citizens. I bet more folks would chime in and some of the information might even reach those who REALLY need it...ie the ones who don't show up 😛

[2015/10/16 16:43] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): they could just as easily close the window.

[2015/10/16 16:43] Lucy Morrisey (sharaid): Totally goodidea

[2015/10/16 16:43] Piper Rewell: they could indeed

[2015/10/16 16:43] Omidon Zeller (omidon): I thought you were cammed on my ass.

[2015/10/16 16:43] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): oh that -is- a cool idea

[2015/10/16 16:43] Piper Rewell: but they could open it again, too.

[2015/10/16 16:43] Piper Rewell: and those who are RPing can peek in now and then

[2015/10/16 16:44] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): if they dont want to listen, nothing will make them listen, but those who peek in might learn a bit

[2015/10/16 16:44] Piper Rewell: we can ask folks to keep the banter to OOC....

[2015/10/16 16:44] DeeJBlunt: Thanks for taking the time to do this guys.

[2015/10/16 16:44] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): i will post the log on the forums

[2015/10/16 16:45] Piper Rewell: is there any more discussion we need to have about guns or tazing or even chase scenes?

[2015/10/16 16:45] Piper Rewell: I have no issue discussing those lol

[2015/10/16 16:45] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): if i say yes, does it keep us all here?

[2015/10/16 16:45] Antoni 'Karn' Annaloro (brianvasteal): cause this is actually kinda fun lol.

[2015/10/16 16:49] Nicky DiPietro (vv01f.hermans): Okay then, thanks for the workshop folks. Very informative. Laters 🙂

[2015/10/16 16:50] Blue Handrick (bluebell.noel): and thank you all for showing up and contribute - i think this was really a productive one

[2015/10/16 16:50] Nicky DiPietro (vv01f.hermans): /me runs out dual-wielding revolvers, firing up in the sky yelling 'Yeehaw!'